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| Sorry I mean the first pic, I love my goats but I dont know the breeds very well yet. I also like the mineral tubs. Thanks again Terri
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| If your goats have horns, you can hang the feeders on pipe gates like these one: 
Just attach the close side to a pipe on level with their heads and run wires or ropes from the far side of the feeder up to a higher pipe. Same with a cattle panel. I do this for my bucks as they have very large heads that get stuck in cattle panels. The goats in the first picture are "LaBoers". Boer/Lamancha crosses. Make great meat goats. Goats in the second picture are mostly Nubians with one Saanen and one Lamancha.
Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Dairy and Meat Goats
http://www.freewebs.com/ozarkjewels/
Also Morningland Dairy Raw Milk Cheeses. www.morninglanddairy.com
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Ozark Jewels, you said this in the first page of discussion and I just don't agree with it.
"Grain doesn't keep them warm in winter either, their rumens working on digesting long-stemmed fiber(hay) is what generates body heat. So always keep a quality hay in front of your goats."
I take nutrition pretty seriously, and spend a lot of money on testing, vets, seminars and a sheep nutritionist for my flock, and I think you are missing a big part of the equation. Feeding long stemmed fiber like hay is a must, but not because of its ability to generate heat, but because it tends to linger in the ruman longer then finely chopped feeds like grain and silage's. The ideal length is 1 3/4 of an inch.
But finely chopped grains and corn silage (¼ inch) generates additional heat within the ruman, not because of its small size, but because what it contains for nutrients. Grass has protein and vitamins, but very little sugars and calories. Its why eating a salad is an excellent way to lose weight...drinking soft drinks however...teeming with corn syrup...will put the weight on you.
For a ruminant animal like sheep and goats, that extra starch and sugars means extra calories and in the winter when its cold, extra calories means warmth. In the animal world (I know you know this, butfor the others reading this who may not know) they call calories "energy" in the livestock nutrition world.
The whole concept of using grain or corn silage for extra heat in the animal, is no different then long distance runners tanking up on pastas and other foods loaded with carbohydrates, starches and sugars before a big event. Corn is unique in that it has both starches and sugar, so its a nice mix of long range energy from the starches, and a quick boost of energy from the sugar.
Feed a sheep or goat corn silage or grain on a cold day, and they will be much warmer within. Will they die with just plain hay? Certainly not, but if someone really takes nutrition seriously, they will realize that lambs and kids are born healthier, the predation losses are less, their conversion rations are better, their immunity is higher...in short nutrition is the cornerstone of any livestock operation.
Eat lamb...because 50,000 coyotes CAN'T be wrong!
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| Yes, corn is a "hot" feed. A little corn won't hurt a goat, a little more corn *will* hurt a goat. A diet *high* in corn shortens the lifespan of a productive goat. Corn will simply put weight on an unproductive goat and extra weight shortens the lifespan too. A diet high in corn is bad for the feet and the rumen. Maybe I should have said "the best way for a goat to generate heat is by always having hay for its rumen to work on". The best way is hay. Of course *working* goats should get some concentrates. If you are reading my post, you will see that I said that in there......in the first post. I told the OP that if his/her goats were *non-working goats(unbred does and wethers), that they would be better off with no grain. Since I have tried all ways in the past ten years with goats, I stand by what I said. If you don't think that an unworking animal(such as the OP has I believe) can be fat and sassy all summer and/or winter on just good hay and quality minerals......then you haven't met my goats. I had to stop milking my milking herd early this year due to family health issues. They were turned off all grain, just left on quality hay and mineral with fresh water. Mind you, these does were still nursing their kids, so they were in reality, working goats. This is what they looked like come that fall when I turned them back out to pasture: 
Kids raised on their mothers and no concentrates: 
If you have non-working goats in good condition, they do NOT need grain, no matter the time of year. A little here or there for a treat won't hurt them. The chances of UC in a wether is astronomically higher if you feed grain. Even grain with AC in it. For working goats, grain with a lot of corn in it is not a good idea either. My working goats get a ration of oats, plenty of alfalfa to provide adequate calcium for milking does and growing kids. Only if I have a thin goat do I add some corn for the fat. And that is once in a blue moon. The backbone of every ruminants diet should be forage. Then if they are working animal, add the appropriate amount and type of grain. I choose to only feed whole grains to my goats rather than any type of mixed feeds with pellets or molasses. I want to know exactly what they are eating. I haven't had healthier goats ever than I have had in the years since I followed this. My personal experience with goats and cows.
Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Dairy and Meat Goats
http://www.freewebs.com/ozarkjewels/
Also Morningland Dairy Raw Milk Cheeses. www.morninglanddairy.com
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As for silage, we use it for our dairy cows but NEVER for my goats. Goats are highly susceptable to any form of mold and it is very hard to find even the best silage with no mold in it at all.
Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Dairy and Meat Goats
http://www.freewebs.com/ozarkjewels/
Also Morningland Dairy Raw Milk Cheeses. www.morninglanddairy.com
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| We just had our first hard freezes about 2 weeks ago and my goats act as though they are starving all the time (don't look like it though) and this may be another of my dumb questions but does the fact that the grass has frozen (and isn't growing any more) now mean that the nutrative value is so low that they are needing something else? I am giving them hay but I am concerned that they seem to want to just eat hay. Are they just being lazy? This is much earlier than last year and so I am concerned that I won't have enough hay for the winter.
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| Well after considering all the advice and doing some more reading I am going to go with just hay and minerals. I am so afraid of UC and I have several wethers, as these are all rescue goats they dont give milk or have babies. Ozark Jewel - I just love the looks of your goats. I am going to try and make a better place for the minerals. mystnd - my goats are the same, they think they are always starving. I am in Missouri and we have had a couple of frost so the pastures have about had it so I put out hay today but several of my goat decided to go leaf hunting and since most of the leaves are on the ground they ate those for a while then went and ate the hay. I love goats. Thanks Terri
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| I'm also in Missouri and we are feeeding hay at least a month earlier than last year. This early cold is annoying to say the least..... Yes, the freezes make the grass less nutricious and less palateable for goats especially. If you have browse, rather than just grasses, your greens will last further into the fall. This time of year my goats have hay in front of them all the time, and they go out and scrounge when they feel like it.
Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Dairy and Meat Goats
http://www.freewebs.com/ozarkjewels/
Also Morningland Dairy Raw Milk Cheeses. www.morninglanddairy.com
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| I think this is wise, but let me stress again that they need *quality hay* to do well. Average cattle hay is too coarse for goats to do well on or even to eat. A GOOD horse hay is more likely to make a good goat hay. It needs to smell sweet and fresh, no musty or moldy smells. It needs to be leafy not stemmy. It should never be yellowish but should be greenish when the bale is broken into. A good orchard grass or brome hay is wonderful. If you can find a grass/alfalfa mix, that is even better. Alfalfa will help with the protien levels. Contrary to a popular belief that is widely spread, alfalfa does not cause UC. Its the imbalance of phosphorous/calcium ratio that causes stones. Grass hay is high in phsphorous, alfalfa hay is high in calcium. Grain is also high in phosphorous, so if you feed grain and grass hay its a double whammy for UC. So a mix of grass/alfalfa helps balance the calcium/phosphorous ratio. Alfalfa is pretty awesome stuff. But again, it has to be quality hay or its doing no one any good. If you pay $2.50 for a bale of hay and they eat 30% of it, its costing you more than the $5.00 bale that they eat 90% of. And goat hay can have weeds in it too, they *love* that, gives them variety in their diet. Weedy hay is fine, as long as the hay is quality and not old. The biggest problem is that a lot of people choose quantity over quality when cutting hay. This works ok for beef cattle, but it makes purchasing quality hay always a challenge for the rest of us. Don't be afaraid to tell the seller that their hay is not what you are looking for, and move on to the next person. I highly reccomend the beef cattle mineral RIGHT NOW ONYX. I have used it for my goats for years and love it. I'm in Missouri, so I'm guessing you might be able to get it where you are. What part of Missouri are you in?? Keep the mineral fresh and dry. They won't eat it all the time, so keep small amounts out so you can keep it fresh. Don't put out ANY other form of salt, or they will not go to the mineral to get what they need. The Right Now Onyx has all the salt they need. Supplying any other form of block or loose salt will lessen the effectiveness. I'm glad you like my girls, I'm rather attached to them myself. You'd be welcome to stop in if you are ever in the area. TerriL (10/24/2009)
Well after considering all the advice and doing some more reading I am going to go with just hay and minerals. I am so afraid of UC and I have several wethers, as these are all rescue goats they dont give milk or have babies.Ozark Jewel - I just love the looks of your goats. I am going to try and make a better place for the minerals.
Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Dairy and Meat Goats
http://www.freewebs.com/ozarkjewels/
Also Morningland Dairy Raw Milk Cheeses. www.morninglanddairy.com
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In the book "Grass Fed Beef" the author makes the claim that frozen grass is of high quality,and I have heard on numerous livestock forums that frozen grass "locks the nutrients in". It kind of goes against standard reasoning though and kind of makes you go "really?"
So I tested some last year. 3rd crop, boot high, orchard grass, timothy, clover and alfalfa mix.
It did not test well. The protein was quite low in the 11% range, and vitamin D and A were both lacking which could result in some very concerning health issues if fed for long periods of time. You could of course make the frozen grass work nutritionally with grain and mineral mix and make it pencil out, but I am not sure how it would pencil out. I think it would really depend on how the farm is managed and how many acres you have. I think it would take A LOT!
Eat lamb...because 50,000 coyotes CAN'T be wrong!
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