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RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

sleboers — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:26:30 GMT

Thats horrible. yes, I do subscribe to boer_goats, but I don't like the bickering and most people there drive me insane.

RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Sue Weaver — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:50:03 GMT

[quote]sleboers (7/24/2008)

I too was turned away from rescuing a bottle baby kid because I was "too young, stupid, showed and bred percentage and purebred boers." Yes I'm young but that shouldn't make a difference whether or not I should be able to adopt a goat if I have the experience and the funds. and it definately shouldn't matter if you are a responsible breeder. I have only bred one rescue goat and that is because she has extremely good conformation. yes, I was taking a risk not knowing her pedigree but her kids were beautiful and ended up winning grand champion market goat and reserve grand percentage boer doe.

[quote]

If you put out the word, I bet you could find lots of bottle kids needing a great home like yours. Do you subscribe to the_boer_goat at YahooGroups? People there often offer wonderfully well-bred newborn kids free to good homes because they don't want to bottle feed them.

Also, let area vets know you're interested. One of my future packgoat wethers is a Boer crossbred seized in a neglect case and taken, along with a bunch of other newborns, to our vet. He knows we have Boers and household dairy goats, so he called and asked us to come get some. We raised two, re-homed one, and still have (and will always have) Tumnus. He's such a sweet guy. Makes me sad to think someone tossed him and his brothers in a stall to die. The owner didn't want to drag his does down by allowing them to raise multiple kids so he pulled the extra male kids and literally threw them away.

Sue

RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

sleboers — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:15:47 GMT

I think it's almost stupid (actually I think it is, I just don't wanna be rude) that a rescue would turn away a breeder or shower. Most responsible breeders would want to breed out diseases and effects (hip displaysia and what not) out of the breed that a lot of dogs with unkown descent might havealong with conformation and temperment.

i don't necesarilly have an opinion on shelters that euthanize. I feel that if an animal keeps coming back to a rescue and it's owner(s) have attempted multiple times to train and have had the animal for a while, it should probably be euthanized because there is a problem beyond fixing.

Rant over....

RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Cherie Langlois — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:16:39 GMT

[quote]Kaykaypw (7/24/2008)

My other issue is the financial assumptions. Yes, I'm only 29 + 1 (I refuse to be 30), and Yes, I worked as a zookeeper (a very underpaid profession), but I am more than financially capable of providing for any and all animals I choose to bring into my home. Before my husband was doing well playing golf we had some financial difficulties (who doesn't), but I still took care of my dogs better than most. I had one who racked up $10k in vet bills in a year. I found a way to take care of him because his problem wasn't fatal and I felt he deserved the best I could give. I ate Ramen for a year, worked 3 jobs and worked for the vet as much as I could to pay down my bill. I'm very thankful my vet chose to help us out.
My own adoption contract only states that the new owner understands the potential costs and asks what they are going to do if there is a major medical bill. The people who say they will find a way almost always get the animal. Its those that do not have an answer who are in question.

Good discussion - I love hearing other people's opinions, and we all know how opinionated animal folk can be!

Karen[/quote]

This is a great discussion -- thanks so much for starting it, Karen! I can't keep away

I completely agree with you that rescues should NOT discriminate against people based on their financial situation. Like you, there are many people who take wonderful care of their animals and pay for whatever their furry "kids" need, no matter what their earnings. Likewise, there are folks with lots of money who neglect their animals. Rescues need to be very careful about the whole discrimination issue -- we've had some heated discussions about this at ours.

As far as breeders and people involved with purebred dogs, I do remember one rescue person I talked to really coming down hard on them, and it bothered me a lot. Without good, reputable breeders devoted to their breeds and people interested in showing, we wouldn't have all those cool dog breeds, each with their own unique history and purpose (I've been doing some breed profiles for Dog Fancy, and I LOVE learning about the different breeds). They would vanish like so many of our heritage livestock breeds

One more thing about adoption fees: the rescue I volunteer with charges the same for an animal that comes in not needing spay/neuter, etc. as for one that does to help defray the costs of the ones that end up costing a fortune to treat first before adoption (keep in mind that these animals would probably be euthanized at a regular shelter). That's the only way a rescue can keep on doing what they're doing (although after seeing some of these vet bills, it amazes me that they still manage to operate). That said, I know I've seen some adoption fees out there that seem awfully high -- particularly for purebreds.

Cherie

RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Kaykaypw — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:03:20 GMT

Hi all,

Please be sure to notice that I use the words most, possibly, some - not all in referring to rescue groups. I am a big supporter of rescue, I am not a supporter of those that turn people away because they are not the "perfect" owner, yet are constantly complaining that they are full on animals. I understand the cost involved in some of these rescues, especially when it comes to medical bills, but some of these groups charge the same for an animal that came in yesterday in good health as they do for an animal that has had multiple medical problems and the accompanying bills.

I said in my first post that I show, but don't breed. I'm not particularly defensive about this, but I just went on a job interview with a shelter in my area and was berated for supporting the dog show community. It was more of them making a point than me being considered for a position and I guess I am a little sore on that subject. The AKC has been great to me. The AKC scholarships paid for my college education. My breed clubs have supported me with rescues, referrals for employment and now referrals for my pet training business. I hate the feeling that even though I support rescue in every way I'm still being judged by some rescues for my associations with purebred dogs.

That said - Sue, I would love to take your sheep. I just haven't bought the farm yet. So, I'll be in touch when and if that happens.

Good discussion - I love hearing other people's opinions, and we all know how opinionated animal folk can be!

Karen

RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Sue Weaver — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:12:17 GMT

[/quote]
I have a bone to pick with most of you over the issue of adoption fees, though After seeing how rescue works, I think the fees are absolutely necessary. We adopt kittens and cats out for $85 and it's a bargain if you do the math; each of these have had the works done on them: spay/neuter, shots, microchip, feline leukemia/AIDS test, deworming, flea treatment, exam, and more if any health problems have cropped up. Call your own vet and ask how much each of these procedures cost, and you'll find out they add up to a small fortune. I fostered one cat, for example, that had been shot with a BB gun AND had a bladder infection -- he racked up a huge bill at the vet. Our rescue does not receive all this for free, they only get a slight discount (when we rescue adult cats from the kill shelter, we even have to pay most of the adoption fee there!). They get some donations of food and litter, but much of it they have to buy themselves.

Cherie[/quote]

We recently had a dog spayed. It was the basic, no-frills spay and cost $175. It adds up quickly.

People might prefer to go to the neighbor with free kittens or puppies but then do they have their acquisition vaccinated and neutered or spayed? If so, the 'free' kitten is no longer such a bargain.

Sue

RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Cherie Langlois — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:16:44 GMT

[quote]Sue Weaver (7/24/2008)

[quote][b]Kaykaypw
One of the things I like about working with a rescue group is that if something goes wrong, if for any reason at all you can't keep them, they take the animal back and put it up for re-adoption. I'm 61, John is 57. No one in our families would want our animals if we died unexpectedly. A few would go to people who have specifically agreed to take them but what about the rest? I worry about that all the time.

Sue[/quote]

Yes! That's a big advantage to adopting from a no-kill rescue, but at the same time I think it's one of the reasons rescue people eventually get so frustrated, burnt out, and excessively picky about who they adopt to. I've volunteered with a rescue for about two years now, and we're constantly getting dogs and cats returned to us, some for very valid reasons (owner gets sent to Iraq, kid becomes allergic, owner dies, it won't get along with other pets, etc). Often, however, these animals are returned simply because the adopter didn't want to hassle with a behavior problem that showed up or take the time to introduce the animal properly or supervise interactions with kids. My feeling is that some rescue people forget that there are no perfect pet owners out there (I'm certainly not!). If you're going to wait around for the perfect animal owner to show up, you may as well quit adopting animals out.

I have a bone to pick with most of you over the issue of adoption fees, though After seeing how rescue works, I think the fees are absolutely necessary. We adopt kittens and cats out for $85 and it's a bargain if you do the math; each of these have had the works done on them: spay/neuter, shots, microchip, feline leukemia/AIDS test, deworming, flea treatment, exam, and more if any health problems have cropped up. Call your own vet and ask how much each of these procedures cost, and you'll find out they add up to a small fortune. I fostered one cat, for example, that had been shot with a BB gun AND had a bladder infection -- he racked up a huge bill at the vet. Our rescue does not receive all this for free, they only get a slight discount (when we rescue adult cats from the kill shelter, we even have to pay most of the adoption fee there!). They get some donations of food and litter, but much of it they have to buy themselves.

My point is, our rescue often takes a loss on the animals we adopt out. I look at adoption fees as donations that help the rescue keep doing what it's doing (did you know the fees are tax deductible if the rescue is non-profit?). I also believe the fees help weed people out who place no value on their pets more than they prevent people from being able to afford a pet. Whatever you initially pay for an animal, whether it's nothing or a lot, that's only the first drop in a big bucket (especially if it's a horse!).

Sorry, this seems to be turning into a novel, but I'm a big fan of rescue (most of my pets are rescues) and have found that so many people involved in it have such big hearts (toward animals, anyway). I started volunteering with rescue for one reason -- to prevent perfectly wonderful, adoptable pets from being put to sleep at the shelter -- and that's why I encourage people to go to a shelter or rescue rather than buy from a backyard breeder or (yikes) a pet store. Anyway, if you're not sick of hearing from me on this topic by now, check out the web article I wrote on rescuing a dog for your farm that's on this site.

Cherie

RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Sue Weaver — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:52:56 GMT

Gallus (7/24/2008)

One of the things I like about working with a rescue group is that if something goes wrong, if for any reason at all you can't keep them, they take the animal back and put it up for re-adoption.

True, and good point, but many breeders do the same. Some breeders' organizations have even developed codes of ethics, with strong enticements to encourage their members to do the same. Some even have developed penalties for breeders who agree to the provisions, and are later found to violate them. Many responsible breeders have taken it upon themselves to initiate the take back policy, with no requirement or encouragement from any outside source. This still doesn't satisfy many of the humane-iacs. All breeding is bad, and they don't want to consider any other point of view.

Yes, this is true--I'm glad you pointed that out. I tip my hat to those breeders as well. :o)

Sue

RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Gallus — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:40:47 GMT

One of the things I like about working with a rescue group is that if something goes wrong, if for any reason at all you can't keep them, they take the animal back and put it up for re-adoption.

RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Sue Weaver — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:46:10 GMT

Kaykaypw (7/24/2008)

I posted this as a new topic.

Last week I was discussing with a rescue group representative my desire to add a few sheep at some point. She told me she would not adopt to me because I am too young and not financially capable of taking care of sheep the way they need to be. She made these judgements without any idea of who I am. She did not ask me to fill out an application prior so she had no idea my age or my animal experience. As far as the financial comment, I'm not sure what made her think I could not afford to take care of sheep. She didn't even ask me what I (animal trainer) or my husband (PGA tour pro) do for a living. I was more p*ssed off than discouraged and I know now who I won't be recommending people to in the future.

I wish you lived closer, I would set you up with a happy group of Miniature Cheviot wethers that need a good, caring home. What do they think is so hard about caring for sheep?

I guess I've been lucky because the organizations I've worked with have been well organized and fair, with (at least I think) reasonable adoption fees.

One of the things I like about working with a rescue group is that if something goes wrong, if for any reason at all you can't keep them, they take the animal back and put it up for re-adoption. I'm 61, John is 57. No one in our families would want our animals if we died unexpectedly. A few would go to people who have specifically agreed to take them but what about the rest? I worry about that all the time.

Sue

RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Gallus — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:05:21 GMT

Both well said. Their fees are another issue which has bugged me too. In some cases, I've seen them as high as $500. IMO, that is not an adoption fee, that is selling. Another thing that they don't seem to realize, is that those high fees are another factor in encouraging people to buy from the less than reputable sources, as often they put less into the animals, and so can justify selling them for less, while still making money. Of course, I do realize that there are high costs associated with taking in and caring for homeless animals, especially when you get into veterinary bills, including spaying and neutering, but by it's very nature, helping animals with no owner to pay the bills is not going to be a money making, or even a break even venture. Unless of course you get into the big nonprofits with well funded marketing programs designed to bring in lots of donations, like the HSUS, but now we're getting into mutliple side isues. That's not the best example, because HSUS doesn't actually do any animal care or placement work of it's own, but I think you get the picture.

It's funny to me that you feel the need to justify yourself as not being a breeder. Breeding itself is not all bad, unless, like you say, you're one of the rescue types, but see how their thinking is creeping into your ideas? Here's a tact that I've used on occasion when dealing with them; next time you find yourself dealing with a snot like the one who refused to consider you because of some preconceived assumption, don't mention the words adopt, donation, or fee. Instead, use words like, selling, price and bought. I've used it with some of them on occasion, and it drives them wild when they hear that they are seen as "selling" animals for a "price", rather than "adopting" them out for a "fee". Maybe a bit petty, but it's given me some minor satisfaction by sending some of them through the roof, by giving them a taste of their own medicine!

RE: Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

mommabear — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:26:22 GMT

I agree - recently I tried to "adopt" a potbelly pig to keep mine company. Potbellies were the "in" pet of the 80's, now you can' t give them away. They are also not the easiest animals to keep. I was told, NO, I could not adopt a spayed female or a neutered male, because my pig is not neutered but is an intact male. And ALL male pigs are MEAN. This animal is 4 yrs old and does not have a mean bone in his body. The baby chicks sit on his back, he hangs with all the other livestock here and is a truly gentle soul. My issue is that not ALL pigs are going to be mean, just like not ALL rams or bucks will be nasty. And since I am not an idiot, if they didn't get along, I would make sure they were seperate, just like with the rest of the animals here. So there is a needy animal that didn't get a home.

Typical

And the cost IS prohibitive. It costs $80 to adopt a kitten here from the pound . Can you tell me that is not going to encourage people to go find a neighbor with free kittens instead ? They are turning people away with the costs.

Ok off soapbox. : )

Animal Rescue Groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Kaykaypw — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:18:13 GMT

I posted this as a new topic.

I have been on both sides of the rescue debate as an adopter and as a rescuer. I show dogs, but I make certain that I am taking care of any rescues in my area of the breeds I am involved in. I'm very harshly judged by many rescue groups because I show my dogs. They don't seem to understand that just because I show, doesn't mean I breed.

I have also run into so many judgmental rescue groups out there who don't seem to think that anyone has the experience, finances, etc to take care of one of their animals. Last week I was discussing with a rescue group representative my desire to add a few sheep at some point. She told me she would not adopt to me because I am too young and not financially capable of taking care of sheep the way they need to be. She made these judgements without any idea of who I am. She did not ask me to fill out an application prior so she had no idea my age or my animal experience. As far as the financial comment, I'm not sure what made her think I could not afford to take care of sheep. She didn't even ask me what I (animal trainer) or my husband (PGA tour pro) do for a living. I was more p*ssed off than discouraged and I know now who I won't be recommending people to in the future.

I'm very surprised at the adoption fees charged by some of these groups as well. I feel it is a great deterent for potential adopters. Who is going to want to spend as much or more on a rescue horse as they would on a horse that doesn't have the potential mental and physical problems? It takes a special person to take on the animals that need the most care mentally and physically and there just aren't enough special people out there for each animal. So, by discouraging new adopters the rescue groups are ensuring that they will always be over filled and that the new adopters will probably just buy an animal off of craigslist/backyard breeder/pet store which may end up in rescue when the new people without guidance get frustrated from learning the hard way.

Okay, that is the end of my rant. I'm a little past my bedtime so if this doesn't make as much sense as it does in my head, please don't judge.