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RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

mlanski — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 15:34:35 GMT

Said the same things about Coyotes in Pa, but now we know that they are here in great numbers, and have been for years and years. They didn't want people to fear them, so they didn't speak of them. I personlay don't think big cats will come back via the game commistion, I think they have come back at their own will. Do you remember the Coyote in Central Park NYC?

But those cats are cats... and IMO, a few could easly wonder east and live in Rural NEngland or Pa. They are just taking back what we took away. That is why Penn State has a Lion for a mascot.

So why is it in the books that you CAN't Shoot one if they are not here???

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

Gallus — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 11:21:04 GMT

Politics. Here in New England, especially in New Hampshire, we have the occasional sighting. Now many are by those who don't know a ground hog from a pot-bellied pig, but we occasionally do have a sighting by someone who presumably knows what he or she is talking about, who has the experience, knowledge or education to differentiate a mountain lion from a bobcat. Still, Fish and Game adamantly refuses to admit that these people could have actually seen a mountain lion, because if they do, they would be required to use their funding in order to provide protection for the animal(s). Released or escaped captives notwithstanding, which probably do occasionally happen, Fish and Game isn't going to devote resources to something which they cannot reap monetary benefits from, and which could potentially, although doubtfully, affect the numbers of their precious deer herd from which they receive lots of revenue in the form of hunting licenses and taxes and fees on equipment. Despite their mandate, they are not going to do anything to encourage the return of mountain lions to this area, and will use any propaganda at their disposal to keep from spending a dime on a nongame species.

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

mlanski — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 14:47:02 GMT

Did you know it is not leagle to shoot a mountian Lion in Pa, even though the state of PA says they are not here.

Makes you wonder.

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

Cherie Langlois — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:28:05 GMT

[quote]Calico_Skies (10/1/2008)

A good way to deter predators is to keep a healthy wild prey population. If you have the space, fence out a bit to put to woodland, and inside the fence, put a barrier of food bushes (like mulberries) that you don't want to harvest from.

The woodland will supply your local predators with plenty of wild prey species like mice and rabbits, while the prey animals will stay away because there will be enough food and shelter for them in the woods.

Good point! I'd never thought of that, but it might be another reason why we've had so few problems with wild predators over the years. We have a woodlot that we've left to the wild animals; it's full of salal and other wild berries that deer and other critters love and has plenty of cover.

(And in my private opinion, whether legal or not, it is inexcusable to shoot an endangered species - federally listed or not - like wolves or cougars. I understand stoats, weasels, coons, possums, coyotes, etc. It is the farmer's responsibility to find a way to co-exist. After all, we're supposed to be smarter than them, aren't we?)[/quote]

I completely agree with you there!

Cherie

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

Calico_Skies — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 07:51:24 GMT

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

gcwpapillon — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:17:30 GMT

I'm mellow, if they don't bother me and my own I won't bother them. Right now we're in the middle of a war with the rats; (when you have 12 chickens and go through a 50lb bag in less that 2 weeks. its war).

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

walls0stone — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 11:46:55 GMT

I guess predators are part of the eco system, but they are carnivore, so am I

Fox, coyotes, and other legal predatory creatures are on my enemy list..I don't hate them...but I guess I'm make'n war on them.

Crows have no natural enemy other than owls and hawks. Left to grow in great flocks, they can do great damage...they are a formidable foe.

Also, I don't look at bunnies, deer or other non predatory creatures as just critters to miss hitting with your car, but critters that may want to eat my garden or my corn.

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

mystnd — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 07:25:57 GMT

To the farmer who disagreed....I'm not sure we're saying anything much different. The difference I think is in the "numbers" we are protecting and the importance to our livelihood. Part of our responsibilities to our critters (be they hobbies or livlihood) is protection because generally we have "prey animals". The difference comes in the efficiency necessary to protect. I can be a bit more tolerant since my chickens are right outside my back door and I can get to them quickly if the dog raises the alarm. But when I expand and the animals are in my back pasture, it will be a different story.

As to ground squirrels, gophers, moles or whatever you call them....I have stepped in enough holes and had to deal with enough of them in gardens and fields to feel...it's war. As Bill Murray said in Caddyshack...they are"varmit cong". Mary Ann

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

mommabear — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 06:28:59 GMT

I also think that most livestock owners don't deliberately go out to hunt down wild predators, but rather will protect their livestock from them if need be. Predators are important to the wild ecosystem, just not on my farm, LOL> Our livestock are our investment, pets , or our livelyhood so we have the right to protect on our property.

In our state, it is illegal to hunt or kill any predatory bird such as a hawk or eagle, and I have had losses of my hens to hawks. I keep a Great Pyrenees livestock guardian dog to hopefully help to protect my livestock incl goats, sheep, poultry and one potbelly pig. We do have lots of coyotes and cougar in our area as well as smaller things like fox, bobcats etc. The larger predators don't come onto the farm as they have enough game in the woods to keep them happy, here. We have had foxes alot, and bobcat, hawks etc.

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

walls0stone — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:51:23 GMT

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.

As a Farmer, I enjoy critters much as you all do. But I have an investment to protect. I've also seen what predators do to livestock when they take it's life. It's not pretty as anyone with Discovery channel knows. I also need to see my money back or risk losing a farm that has been in this family since 1900.

Needless to say that when groundhogs (woodchucks) dig holes all over a field, making it harder to farm. Since they don't have a real predator, and the reproduce like bunnies, you can be infested in a season.

Coyotes are different in PA than out west..more like a wolf and hunt in packs. They have a larger body and very cunning. In cattle over 500lbs and large dogs have been killed by Coyotes. When hunting them, they hunt you! The only way to get one is to lay in the DARK, sounding like a wounded rabbit. Those devils howling and calling to each other, coming closer and closer.

Crows are a major problem since they eat record price corn. But keeping them in line is not that easy either since they can count and they do know the difference between a shotgun and a golf club.

All God's creatures have a place. I'm not a cruel or redneck nut case, but left to their own, many predators will just take the defeincless animals you have, and not the wild pray God provided.

Wile on the subject, I was very much disturbed by the quiz on this sight that said one should take favors from sportsmen who wish to come on your land. I find this very un-farmerlike. Sure, it's your land, you paid for it and worked hard. And so did the people who had it prior to you., Begat, begat, begat. In farming the key is to get along with and as individuals, work together to achieve other goals.

The gentlemen or ladies you allow to sport responsibly on the land you farm, will be more likely to assist you in some way later, voluntarily. But saying to a sportsmen, you can't come here unless you bring your bulldozer first is not the polite or effective way to farm.

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

Cherie Langlois — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:48:52 GMT

[quote]Lady Shepherd (8/5/2008)

Hi,
My vote is with Cherie and Sue, I am not here to wage war on any living creature. I love the FACT that I am sharing my space, farm, land with these creatures that were here before me!

And if anybody has any good ideas on keeping bunnies out of gardens please let me know.[/quote]

I think you put that very eloquently! I'm reminded of the development my parents live in at the edge of the Catalina mountains in Tucson, Arizona. The place is crawling with deer, coyotes, bobcat, javelina, rattlesnakes, and other wildlife -- all animals that lived in this area BEFORE developers plunked down all these houses, golf courses, etc. People who live there complain about the coyotes dining on their cats and toy dogs, and the occasional cougar wandering around the golf course. My attitude is, Hey, these critters were here first, keep your cats inside.

As for those bunnies: we have a fence around our vegetable garden with small gauge wire to keep out rabbits, as well as our chickens, ducks, and dogs. Some persistent bunnies started squeezing in between the bottom of the fence and the railroad ties (it's a raised bed) and so we stapled the fence to the wood. That seems to be keeping them out so far (it also helps that our hound dog LOVES to chase bunnies, though he never catches them).

Cherie

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

Cherie Langlois — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:30:58 GMT

mystnd (8/4/2008)

I'm so sorry that your guardian dog is missing, Mary Ann. I hope you find him soon!

Thanks for sharing your opinions, girls -- it's nice to know I'm not the only farmer with a fondness for predators

Cherie

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

Lady Shepherd — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 06:05:27 GMT

Hi,
My vote is with Cherie and Sue, I am not here to wage war on any living creature. I love the FACT that I am sharing my space, farm, land with these creatures that were here before me!
I much prefer prevention. I have on my pastures fencing that will and does keep just about everything out except for raccoons and possums. ( and bunnies in the garden) That's a different story .......but they have to eat too!
My fencing consists of a post and rail fence with barbed wire next and then woven wire. Nothing other than the above mentioned animals penetrate it. And that is only because they climb over!
So I don't give them any reason to come to my pasture (feeding ground) My chickens, ducks and guineas all come in at night!
Geese ...... well, there really is not to much that will try to take them. Other than RATS! and that is only when they are small.
( sorry those I do trap and dispose of)! YuK!!!!!
The geese are smart they flock together and do not break the thickness of the flock at night. Safety in numbers!
So my thoughts are don't LEAVE FOOD OUT!
And if anybody has any good ideas on keeping bunnies out of gardens please let me know.

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

Sue Weaver — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 13:10:25 GMT

Wow, Cherie, I couldn't say it better! Except that we have Feyza, our LGD, we prevent predation in precisely the same ways you do.

As an outdoorsy person who appreciates the wild creatures, I feel it's my obligation to protect my livestock from predators rather than declaring war on them. And like you, I realize most livestock owners don't feel that way and that's their right as well.

Sue

RE: What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

mystnd — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 13:01:54 GMT

Great timing on this for me!! I guess I have to premis this with my sad story. A week ago, my two guardian dogs got out and went missing. Three days later, my 2 year old came back but her dad...the real guardian...hasn't yet. I am currently dealing with my own sadness, my kids'sadness and the dog's sadness. At any rate, she seems to be coming out of it but we are having some difficulties "plugging" all the holes she can get out. I believe they initially got out to chase off a skunk and she seems to be bent on being out now. At any rate, I've been letting her stay inside at night (probably not a good idea but you do what you can). Last night she went bonkers about 3:30 and when I opened the door she bolted out and I could hear the coyotes calling all around us. She made a bee line for a weak spot in the old barn (that I hadn't had time to fix permanently) and was out running back and forth and barking furiously. Well, at any rate, the coyotes went away and she came in once they were quiet.

I actually love to hear the coyotes and, like you, have lost my share of chickens who chose to roost in trees. I also lean toward prevention and feel that they are just doing what comes naturally. I would not shoot them or poison them. I just feel that it's my job to keep my critters safe and stay one step ahead of the wild ones. After all, it's part of why I live in the country. Mary Ann

What's Your View on Predators? War or peace?

Cherie Langlois — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:36:59 GMT

Hey All,

This popped into my head while I was nominating crows as one of the more intelligent animals on our farm, and I thought it might make an interesting discussion topic. As a farmer, how do you view potential predators like coyotes, wolves, cougars, eagles, hawks, raccoons, etc.....(I know it's a big list)? Are they the evil enemy you must battle? Are they wild creatures that have a right to eat and live as much as any other -- just not on your animals? How do you prevent predator losses on your farm? Do you wage war or focus on prevention or both?

I know my views on predators are probably pretty strange for a farmer's because of my background as a zoo keeper and all-around animal lover. Also, I don't raise farm animals for my livelihood, which makes a big difference in my perspective. At the same time, however, I hate losing my animals to predators! But I've respected and loved wild predators all my life -- especially cougars and wolves -- and believe they are vital to the health of ecosystems. I know some farmers in our area would have no problem shooting a coyote on sight; not me. I'm usually thrilled if I see one on my walks, but I wasn't so thrilled when one showed up in my backyard this winter and nabbed a chicken.

Anyway, on our farm we focus on prevention rather than war (except we do occasionally put bait bars out for rats and mice when we have a problem). Predators like to go for easy prey, so we try to make it as hard for them to eat our animals as possible. Here are a few prevention tactics we use:

1. Sturdy fencing. We have good tight field fencing around our entire property, and a second "buffer" fence around the animal pastures, with hotwire at the top. I actually put this up more to keep dogs out (most of my losses have been due to wandering dogs). I try to check for digging once a month, and fill any holes with rocks (we have lots!).

2. Confining animals at night. Everybody, except for the horses, go into stalls or pens for the night: sheep, goat, chickens, ducks. Some of my bird losses have occurred when I've left someone out at night (sometimes the Muscovies fly into trees and I can't get them in or a chicken goes broody on a hidden nest).

3. Doggy patrol. I don't have any guardian dogs, although from my research I think they sound like a great way to ward off predators. However, a few times a week I let my hound dog Pippin out in the pastures and he runs around and marks the entire periphery like crazy (even though he's fixed!). I do think that helps keep coyotes away, since we've had so few come on our property over the years.

I'd love to hear your prevention strategies

Cherie