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RE: 4H ?

cweick — Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:36:22 GMT

THANKS SO MUCH WILLIAMS!

This is what I need.

RE: 4H ?

Williams — Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:07:39 GMT

p.s. Not only did they include Interview #6 in their activity write-up, but they presented all the info from all interviews at their next Sheep Club meeting. Again, they hated it - first interviewing strangers and NOW public speaking in front of their peers????

Yes, 4H causes pain.

Good pain.

RE: 4H ?

Williams — Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:04:54 GMT

Ok, you need specific advice:

1. Is your project book part of the 4H Skills for Life series? If so, it is divided into chapters with sections titled 'Your Challenge'; 'Talk It Over'; and 'More Challenges' ? If so, read on. If not, I bet the info below is still somewhat useful, but you'll have to translate it to how your own book is organized. . .

2. If so, PT should do the 'Your Challenge' activities alone. He may use books or the web for reference - and of course you may want to supervise or just teach him the research skills that he may lack.

3. Then you (as Helper) or his club leader can talk through the 'Talk it Over' activities and he will complete the blanks for those.

4. Then he can select a few 'More Challanges' activities to complete. These take more Helper assistance and often involve more 'stretching' on the child's part. [this is where my kids had to interview shepherds at a show].

5. For our program in PA, a Level 1 child (like PT) would need to complete a minimum of 7 activities of either type (Your Challenge or More Challenges) each year, then the Helper dates and initials those to confirm the activities were done (see like pg 4 of your book for an activity record).

6. There are a total of 21 or more activities (Your Challenge and More Challenges) in the Level 1 book. So, it takes 3 years for a child to work through the Level 1 book, doing 7 activities per year. Once Level 1 is completed (by age 10 or 11), they go on to Level 2 and Level 3, etc. Each book gets more complex as you go (i.e. as the child ages and gains experience).

7. So for you and PT, I would recommend picking the 7 most do-able activities for your first year. Check with the club leader to see if this Rule of 7 applies in your club.

8. There is also a Livestock Record booklet that must be completed. This is where PT tracks all of his expenses, activities relating to HIS animals, births/deaths, awards and income from his animals. You will want the Beginner level Record book. Intermediate kids use a more complicated record book that includes Rate of Gain and other more-advanced calculations.

9. At the fair, PT will turn in: 1) his 4H Level 1 Swine book (with 7 activities completed), and 2) his Livestock Record booklet. They will be judged and a ribbon awarded based on neatness, completeness and effort displayed. After judging, he will get a small premium check and ribbon, and his book will be returned so he can continue working from it next year.

10. Now, I believe that showing the pig is required, but check with your club leader. PT would need to present his pigs in either the breeding show or the market class of the fair. Perhaps your club will allow him to complete a project without bringing a pig to the fair, but I've never heard of that except in the case of horses. Just check with your leader.

If any of this is unclear, make a call to your club leader or to the county Cooperative Extension office in your county (or parish?) and ask for the 4H Agent. Then keep them on the phone until you get all the answers you need.

Good luck!

RE: 4H ?

cweick — Sun, 21 Mar 2010 07:17:51 GMT

No....not off point...BUT on point.

See it goes to show that even with a disability of anykind you need to have that point of view. If you were not there as the Helper to point your child in the right direction and supporting him you would of not gotten that interview. So the question is did he add it to his book, even though he had gotten his required amount of interview?

Down here there were only 5 pigs that showed at the Jr Livestock Show back in January. I wanted P2 to start off with some kind of animals that was in mid-weight. You can only show broilers for 4H down here and letting him jump waist deep into showing a steer was to much even though that steer would come off our place and be home grown.

But since this is my only child and our 1st time to be in 4H in 2010, I've read the helper's guide and still don't know where to start. So in a way getting him Spot and Gilbert is an introduction to the swine project and if his daddy has he's way, P2 won't show at all. But will cross that bridge when we get there. He has very hard feelings going back to when he was showing 4H. I did not see what he saw, because where I lived we could do a show chicken project and that's all I did.

RE: 4H ?

Williams — Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:27:18 GMT

Tiffle and all,

I have to just check back in to mention the 'interview #6" that the kids did at the sheep show. We had completed our 5 interviews and were packing up to go find food, when a young woman approached us. I had noticed her before watching us. She was clearly mentally disabled. "What are they doing?" she asked. I explained to her that we were interviewing shepherds for a 4H project - as my kids shuffled their feet, a little embarrassed.

Her eyes lit up. "I'll do an interview!" she said. I have to say, my kids looked stricken - they were done and hungry and not entirely comfortable talking to this girl. . . "ok" I said and nudged my son forward with the clipboard. He began asking the questions and the woman gave the MOST incredible and thoughtful answers of the day! And I'm not saying that to make a Hallmark moment . . . she REALLY did!

Example: One of the questions was, "What's the most important thing for young shepherds to know?" Most of our other respondents had said either 1. be prepared for hard work, or 2. relax and have fun . . . or something fluffy like that. This young woman thoughtfully described how it's so important to have good handling facilities so that you can actively manage your sheep with minimum stress to the animals and yourself. I'm telling you she gave an incredible interview!

Anyway, that's what I meant when I said the kids learned so much through that one activity: about themselves and their ability to overcome the fear of the assignment; about sheep and shepherding; and about 'not judging a book by its cover'. How can anyone dislike an organization that encourages kids to be their best in so many ways?

Sorry Cweick, that was off-topic, but I just love that story so so much . . .

RE: 4H ?

doglover5 — Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:29:06 GMT

Also want to point out that 4-H is not only about raising and selling livestock. 4-H is so much more about kids learning about anything they want to do...have you ever looked at at a 4-H Family Guide?

RE: 4H ?

doglover5 — Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:17:37 GMT

I have been a 4-H advisor for 4 years and also a Mom who has "Helped" her children to raise various livestock for 6 years to raise, show and sell as a 4-H project. So from Me to Whoever truely believes that these "Goverment Run" program should be down-sized and not allowed because YOU think what these children are doing is wrong... well I say...think about the future of this country!

RE: 4H ?

Drawbar — Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:23:13 GMT

That is true I Gallus, but I have been around sheep and cows all my life and I know first hand you don't feed animals everyday and take care of them with "only giggles and smiles". It takes commitment, and as Tiffle points out, P-2 could be playing video games and listening to his ipod instead...

RE: 4H ?

cweick — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:21:38 GMT

Well Williams, you gave me an ideal but we can't follow it through until the two Hereford gilts come true.

RE: 4H ?

Williams — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:09:27 GMT

Well, Cweick - here's the helpers' perspective from my end (a 5th year 4H mom):

For the young guys like your P2, you will end up doing a lot of the 'work' that he can't do, and why shouldn't you? When the lambs are first being halter broken - a 9 year old is not the man for the job . . . Mom is! When the 100 lb feed sacks need to be dumped into the bins, a 9 yr old can't . . but Mom can! Aren't we great? It's the closest we'll ever be to superheros :)

As far as the actual 4H Helper part, I take the same approach. I'll help when needed. But I won't do for them. I'll save the feed store receipts all year, but the kids enter the figures and do the adding to get yearly costs. I'll shear or hire a shearer to come for the rough shearing (big dangerous blades involved), but the kids do the slick shearing (small blades that can nip you, but not sever a tendon). I paid for the breeding stock, but they plan the breedings. I do the middle-of-the-night and middle-of-the-day lamb checks, the kids check before and after school. I walk along to supervise the 1-mile daily conditioning walks/runs - but the kids handle the lambs.

I do not pay a lot for breeding stock, and I do not teach winning at all costs. 4H is not a 4-month project for us - we don't buy "club lambs" in the spring, instead we breed our own purebred Shropshires. We'll never win, but that only matters if that's the only thing you've taught your kids to value. As long as we improve our stock and our shepherd/showmanship skills each year - the kids know they've done well.

Last year, the Reserve Champion Market Goat at the fair sold for $300. The girl's family had paid $500 for it as a kid, then fed it for 5 months. They lost money all right. But I think that approach steals something from the child as well. We bred our own, lambed our own, conditioned our own, sheared our own - and tripled our money on each one.

With P2, you'll find you also need to partner with him to do some of the book activities. This year, I made each kid do the one activity they dreaded most - interviewing 5 sheep breeders at a show. They were terrified. I pushed, and at the end of the day, they had each interviewed 6. All of the breeders were incredible and took time to really give nice responses to the kids. The kids ended up really enjoying it. They learned a heck of a lot more than sheep facts that day.

Gallus is right that some 4H families are nasty - and I've seen them here too. But y'know, it's not the organization, it's the parents who think it's about THEM instead of the kids. I know where you and P2 stand, and I hope you have a wonderful 4H year.

RE: 4H ?

cweick — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:53:37 GMT

Gallus....Have you not read any of the other post about the "pig project" from us?

Not on the soap box just yet.....then again I might be

For safety reasons!!!!!!!!!

P2 researches with an adult next to him on the internet. Yes, an adult did the calling on finding the pigs (for he's 8 years old). Gilbert and Spot would of not happened if he did not collect his $500 for his pen (as the agrement between him and his parents). Sure, I did purchased the pigs for him (kept MY word). The food cost % is still in the works.

So call me the mule pulling his cart, then so be it.

We don't pay him to do his chores and the only money he gets is from his B-day and other Holidays.

Got to start somewhere...and okay...on the soap box and getting off.

With no hard feeling until you step on my foot again....

RE: 4H ?

Gallus — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:14:45 GMT

It seems to me that you're doing all of the research, legwork and money management here, and your P2 is sitting back and letting you.

Drawbar, I agree, yet you do eliminate an entire class of adult exhibitor, hobby breeders, who do more to show the real side of small farm livestock production than any 4h kid. When I go to shows and fairs, it's the open shows that I look toward, not the giggles and games of 4h.

RE: 4H ?

cweick — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:20:22 GMT

Okay, so I opened up a can of worms here.

I will support P2 in 4H as I can (the banker). To be honest here, I'm glad that Gilbert and Spot will be over the age limit to show in October, because they are schedule to leave The Homestead in July (sold). So P2 can put that money towards the Hereford Hogs that he wanted at the start of this whole "pig project."

The good news is that we can use both set of animals for his project book (got that okay yesterday). He just won't be able to check off the section that he showed at the local fair until 2012 and at this point I don't care if he shows at all. I want him to come away with the knowledge of the life cycle of pigs. If he needs an award for that, then okay, I can make it myself.

RE: 4H ?

Drawbar — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:59:32 GMT

I see both points of view on this, the anti-competition and the competition sides, but if I was to hazard a guess I would say I am more pro 4H then against.

Part of that reason comes because kids and adults alike, tend to keep score anyway no matter if it is a baseball game, showing sheep or who debating who has more land. That is just life and it happens...everyone keeps score. In that sense, even if everyone comes home with a ribbon, rest assured the kids know how well they did with their animals!

The other part is that 4H tends to follow the ideals of the species and breeds. It does not matter if they are pure-bred per se, but since a long back is say the ideal market sized lamb (for plenty of chops to sell on America's store shelves), 4H'ers tend to go with pure breeds and to keep the ideals of that breed up. As a commercial farmer sometimes it is nice to go back to a pure bred animal and start over again genetically with a great sire or great dam. There is only so far cross-bred vigor can go before things get mucked up genetically you know! 4H'er's tend to have the animals we need, when we need it so they fill a role in putting meat on America's table even if it is indirectly. In short they are a tool that I can use to get the lambs I want and in a timely manner.

Finally they tend to go to fairs. As a commercial producer I can not do that. The risk of infection to my closed flock would be too much, but the 4H'ers who show their animals do not have such a concern. They are at the fairs, and while they might be doing so just to suck up the fair livestock subsidies, they at least are getting sheep, goats, cattle, pigs, etc out there for the public to see. That is more then I can say for commercial farmers who stand behind their fences and gates and keep the general public out due to bio-security reasons. Ultimately I think letting the public see livestock of every sort is a very vital role that cannot be appreciated on a monetary or a public awareness sort of value. It just needs to be done, and the 4H'ers tend to do that and do it well.

For these three reasons and more, I am proud of the 4H'ers and what they do for the livestock industry overall. That is also why I sell my lambs to 4H'ers at cost. It's the least I can do for them considering all they do for me.

(Not slamming anyone, just my opinion on 4H'ers.)

RE: 4H ?

Gallus — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:39:01 GMT

No offense, but I hope you continue to remain a voice in the wilderness. There is nothing wrong with healthy competition. This idea that every kid gets a ribbon just for showing up is what's wrong with the whole program, our schools and our society. It breeds a generation who expects things to be handed to them, rather than having to work for it. Have you read what some of the core values of 4h are? I don't see how creating the next round of mediocre students (at best) or employees is going to help anyone, unless it's just to make sure that there is always someone at the window to ask if I'd like fries with my order.

RE: 4H ?

cweick — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:30:54 GMT

Well Gallus...you may be right about 4H not being for everyone.

My husband has a distaste to it due to his own reasons being in it and showing cattle. I was smart I did show chickens. That's why I'm am releaved that Gilbert and Spot will be to old to show in the October Parish Fair and the Animal Broker that we are going through to get his two gilts (Hereford Hogs) will not make weight for the January 2011 show. But he still can make the project if he wants to, but won't make weight/show. But the best part is that he will be able to grow them out and then (best part coming) breed them to have piglets of his very own.

Sometimes I guestion the whole show system when the families that have the money go out of state and purchase an animal that has been trained already and then bring them back for their 4H(er). Seen that already.

RE: 4H ?

Gallus — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:04:15 GMT

From what I've seen, it's more of a personal choice. Some parents do seem to understand the point, and provide only the basic initial financial assistance, travel to meetings, etc, stepping back and allowing the child to learn and do most everything on his own. Others meddle to an unhelpful degree, IMO, often becoming the doer instead of the helper. That's one of my main crticisms of the program. You'll have to decide for yourself what your role will be, but I've already seen your admission here that your child tends to tire easily of new animals once the novelty has worn off. 4H and the responsibility it intends to teach, is not for everyone.

4H ?

cweick — Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:03:05 GMT

Can someone on the forum explain to me their role (being the adult) as the "Helper" to your child/4H(er)?

Besides being the bank to help purchase the animal, feed and housing.

How involved are you in the project?

Is there different requirements for different projects?